The Next CMO

Optimizing Digital Outcomes with Margo Kahnrose, CMO of Skai

Episode Summary

In this episode, we speak to Margo Kahnrose, the CMO of Skai, the only full go-to-market engine that enables smarter decisions and better outcomes with actionable intelligence in making customer connections.

Episode Notes

In this episode, we speak to Margo Kahnrose, the CMO of Skai, the only full go-to-market engine that enables smarter decisions and better outcomes with actionable intelligence in making customer connections.

We cover topics including:

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Episode Transcription

Kelsey: [00:00:00] Thank you so much for joining us today. Margo, on the next CMO podcast, I know you're calling in from Chicago. I would love to learn a little bit more about you and what you do at school.

Margo: Sure. Nice to be here. Thanks for having me. I am the CFO for sky sky is a marketing. A marketing platform, which is based on really deep and really rich data intelligence. We focus on, you know, kind of low funnel A high return, digital marketing channels primarily that we support directly.

And we work with thousands of, of consumer brands and agencies that manage those brands as well. And I head up all of our marketing globally. So, you know, all of the functions that kind of boost our, all the other functions in our business and help us generate demand you know, kind of capture that demand.

Uphold the brand tell, you know, kind of connect the market to what we're doing and help them understand who we are. All of that stuff falls under my. 

Peter: That's [00:01:00] that's great. And we were chatting briefly before we started to record Margo in. I mentioned that you're one of those people who has an interesting role because you come from a B to C background, you work with a lot of B2C clients, but you're now a B2B marketer. So I I'd love to know one, tell us a little bit about the kind of marketing you did in the B to C world, and that I'd love to know what's different for you when you had to transition from being more pure B to C to becoming a B2B marketer, talking about B2C. 

Margo: Yeah. I mean, well, I, I came up through the creative world. I really, you know, was focused on branding and design. You know, kind of, that was my education. That was my plan was to stay Squarely as kind of a brand person. And. When I, when I graduated college, it was like, you know, there, there are very early two thousands and digital was really just heating up.

You know, we're talking [00:02:00] very early two thousands. So, you know, I became very interested in digital marketing. And I started my career really in the fashion world. I was working for high-end apparel companies. And I was, I was kind of a, a very functional marketer wearing different. And trying on different different areas and trying to see where I was best suited.

So, you know, in, in B to C it was a lot of consumer communications. A lot of, you know, I'm actually doing a lot of digital marketing. I was working on e-commerce websites in their early days. Affiliate marketing, if anyone remembers what that is email marketing, stuff like that. And when I transitioned to B to B, you know, there, there was kind of like this whole other at least, you know, in the time when I first started in B2B, there was this whole other type of marketing that I didn't know much about.

I knew about branding and I knew about digital marketing. I didn't really know much about PR about communications, about events and trade shows. And. [00:03:00] You know, and in 2012, when I first started in B2B, those were really the mainstays of B2B marketing. And I worked under our CMO at S at sky, which at the time was, was the brand name was Ken shoe for four very formative years.

And, and learned all about that world. And. You know, eventually I, what I find now is that a lot of what worked in consumer works for B2B as well. So we kind of went in the last six, seven years from believing that, you know, things like digital marketing, we're not you know, kind of the best way to generate demand and B2B.

To seeing, and I've seen this firsthand that, that it works really well. And all the different channels that we use, you know, as, as a brand directly reaching consumer also works as, you know, a company trying to reach another company. So I think that's been the journey that I've kind of taken which [00:04:00] means now I'm a marketer marketing to marketers.

Who are, you know, my audience is very savvy, you know, they can, they can see right through the tactic or the channel to the core of the message and the offering. But you know, I can kind of go about that communication in a lot of different ways. 

Peter: It's fascinating because I love the concept that you're a marketer marketing to marketers, just because it's a tongue twister and and Kelsey, and I feel you feel your, I dunno what I was going to say your pain, but it's actually a lot of fun. Marketing to marketers. Certainly they're critical. So thank you for all of you listening for your criticism.

I get your I'm. Sure it's mostly positive. They they but they, they do make us better. In fact, we've got a really engaged. Audience that we speak to, I should mention that we've got a great community called the next CMO community that if you haven't joined Margo, you should, you should join in.

Cause it's a great way to communicate to a broad set of marketers that are out there. But the other thing I was going to mention is that I love this idea of how a [00:05:00] B2B. Marketers have learned from B2C and it's actually the same has happened in the other direction. In, in my my tenure is a little bit longer than, than yours.

If you can't tell from the, the audio from my grizzled old rotten voice the video would definitely confirm your suspicions that I've been around. A lot longer than Margo has. And and I I've seen both sides where for a long time B2B was cool and then B to C was cool and it sort of flips back and forth.

And I think the, the idea of B2B marketers learning from B to C is really fantastic because people figured out that. Businesses don't buy stuff. People buy stuff in marketing to people is really important, obviously. And not only from a individual direct marketing perspective, but also from a brand perspective, people actually connect with their brands.

And on the B2C side, I think, especially for considered purchases, I, the B to C marketers. [00:06:00] I've learned a lot from B2B marketers around how to market through a complex sales cycle in how to really understand the buying process and things like that. But we didn't come here to talk about that specifically.

Although this was fun. W what I'd really love to get into with you Margo, and I know Kelsey's probably chomping at the bit, and I'm not giving her any oxygen yet. So this happens a lot is you really now have this deep specialty on the area of sort of media optimization. And it's an important time right now because that world is changing so much and people are really struggling to figure out what works. Maybe you could start by giving us your overall view and sort of what's changing in the digital media landscape right now. And what should we all as marketers be thinking about as we consider where we're placing our. 

Margo: Yeah. I mean, I think you, you kind of started going there with the idea that [00:07:00] B to C marketers are learning from B2B, right? Because B2B, you know, in marketing You're not the only communication mechanism, right? Like the sales team in a B2B environment is really that the most important touch point with the market, at least traditionally.

And so marketing has to constantly prove its existence, right? Like it has to constantly be proving the ROI and paying off and being really well connected to sales in a measurable way. And. You know, in B to C traditionally again, where, you know, traditional media is not necessarily about you know, kind of proving immediate ROI, but has been about storytelling and about, you know, upper funnel brand engagement. the thing that I think has changed significantly, especially since the pandemic where so much of the buying activity went digital and, you know, just kind of all of that e-commerce trend was [00:08:00] accelerated like five years and in one year and what happened was, you know, once all of the buying activity has moved online media, that is Really measurable.

And that is, you know, digital equally became really important. And optimizing that media suddenly became a new muscle that a lot of B2C brands and marketers are starting to kind of really hone for the first time. So, you know, their digital media departments, might've gone from being a small portion of their marketing to a really much, much bigger part of their marketing.

And I see you nodding, so I know, you know, what I'm talking about. And with that, you know, that becomes the struggle of, of optimizing because, you know, I don't want to go totally on a different topic, but for, let's say you're a, B to C brand that has always sold through. Distribution channels like a retailer and not, you know, directly to the consumer.

Well, the media that you've been dealing with has also not been directly to the consumer necessarily. And so, you know, maybe, maybe [00:09:00] you as a brand are struggling to catch up and learning how to optimize it and how to measure it and how to really understand your consumer engagement based. So those are some of the things that I think are starting to change when it comes to media optimization. And the really gratifying thing about it is that, you know, once you start optimizing your media and you start measuring it and you start to realize that there are levers that you can pull when you need to, to get different outcomes. And that it's not this, you know, kind of. Ephemeral you know, kind of thing where you launch a message into the ethers and you hope that it ties back to actual consumer engagement.

It's pretty addictive. You know, you, you really don't want to stop putting dollars there because you can kind of see the immediate return in a way that traditional marketing channels just, just can't compete with. So I think that's some of the sea change that we're starting to see. Right. 

Peter: That's great. And if, if you seen that. One of the things that must accelerate this, this change [00:10:00] is the fact that the, the entire buying experience has been digitized for the first time for a lot of re retailers where there's, even if you have an in store experience, there's a heavy, heavy, digital component to the way that you're interacting.

W with the brand or the store for the first time. So it might be curbside pickup as an example. So instead of going into the physical store, I might shop online I might, that's an opportunity of course, to get people into your digital presence. I now know where they are because I've got some really interesting location information because I know their retail location where they're picking things up.

So I've, I've got. Extra stuff. And has that been part of the cocktail of changes that has driven this transition to a more fully digital experience for consumer marketers? 

Margo: Oh, yeah. I mean, I think, you know, the conversation used to be when we talk about [00:11:00] omni-channel in the sense of. Online and offline in store and online, and there's different definitions of omni-channel. So we won't go there, but traditionally, you know, these for retailers. It's about being online and offline.

And I think when we used to talk about that, it was about how can we provide continuity of experience? How can we make sure that our brand is consistent no matter where the consumer is buying that the message is consistent or optimized for the For the channel or for the location, right. Or the type of customer, maybe even more so, you know, there was a belief and this isn't like an ancient belief.

It's pretty recent that you had online customers and you had offline customers and they were very different personas and you should cater them differently. And I think, you know, that's all kind of, that's all, all those beliefs have been exploded. And at this point, When you're a retailer. And you're thinking about, omni-channel, you're thinking about the integration of experience between online and offline, not the not [00:12:00] just continuity, right.

And you know, how do you look at your customer as a whole person who shops in a lot of different ways? Depending on when and where and why they're engaging and get creative. How to maximize what you get out of each interaction with them. Some of the examples that you gave are, are great ways to think about it.

Right. And I think in COVID, you know, with the pandemic, there were those who were ready and who were doing it really well from the get-go. And there were quite a lot. And at sky you know, we've helped many of them through this transition, quite a lot, that, that took some time to get their bearings, maybe.

Before they were really ready to to create the kinds of experiences that the current customer needs and make sure that it's convenient and easy for them to engage. No matter what, you know, what type of engagement they're interested in.

Kelsey: So Margaret, I'm curious to get your thoughts on this. With the whole [00:13:00] digitization. There's obviously been now these channels that are not really working as well as they used to. And that's trade shows because people are barely having events anymore. What do you see emerging in the near future of channels that you're currently looking out for and, and seeing some sort of progression in.

Margo: Yeah. I mean, in B2B, the trade show hit was a significant hit. I think it's arguable, whether they ever really went. So to say that, you know, they, they suddenly stopped working. Well, they stopped having. But, you know, they were one of those channels that were always sort of hard to you know, really hard to capture exactly what they do for you as a company, maybe drive a few sales from, from a trade show, but they're not one of these like extremely measurable channels anyway.

And they're, they're so expensive, right? So the big lift in every, in every sense and, you know, kind of blurry, blurry, payoff. So when you take something like a trade show budget, which I don't [00:14:00] know for someone like me, Each one is a 30 to 80 grand investment, you know, cause you're talking about just like showing up barely minimal sponsorship to a full booth, to, you know, some kind of booth and speaking, you know, speaking slot and dinner and all that stuff.

And then you do, I don't know, 10, 15 of those a year minimum. And it's a lot of budget that you have that you can suddenly, you know, use another. So what we're experimenting with and I think probably other, other companies are doing similar things are again like taking these B to C these consumer channels and Working them into our mix.

So how do we use social media in much more interesting ways? How do we take advantage of digital formats? Like, you know, like podcasting or like digital webinars And videos and try to really get sophisticated in what we produce, you know, and how how they're engaged [00:15:00] with on the other side and kind of track and play around and get creative.

We're also doing a lot of digital. I mean, we ramped up our search budgets, majorly our paid search media significantly as did you know, pretty much everyone. Over the last couple of years at sky, we support paid search. So we've seen this massive uplift of investments in the channel as people are just, you know, looking for information online as a starting point.

So on the B2B side, I think, you know, it's a lot more of digital marketing. And when you talk about in-person experiences, think. They're starting to happen again. We literally just, just did one last week for the first time and, you know, in three years, and it was, it was extremely well attended. We had, you know, way more attendance than we had pre COVID, I think because people are starting to want that again.

But there's a lot more experimentation happening. And a lot of that is happening online. 

Peter: Yeah, it's interesting. I think there's been this [00:16:00] false view in the world for a, long time. That trade shows where awareness channels, and they're not there. They're engaged with. Kind of channels and it actually can be good, certainly depending on the kind of business that you have. But the thing that always drove me crazy with the trade show kind of investment was that you were dealing with such a small narrow part of your potential audience.

Who would actually be available to go to that trade show that particular time want to go to the trade show at that time actually stopped by your location in the trade show and engage with you. And it was always really difficult to engage with the right people. And certainly there are many examples where I think people have great experiences have probably created great relationships and created sales.

But I think as a, as a strategy, people have, have questioned it. And I think the right way to think about it. Probably the same way [00:17:00] that anyone who's dealing with a consumer retail experiences thinking about it, which is to digitize it. So make it more like a digitally immersive kind of experience. So allow people to participate virtually in, in a trade show as an example, so that you can pop in for one session and still get the content and, and really make the most of it.

I, I think. What's going to make the most of what, what people are doing. But I, I wanted to comment too, on the the idea that you've seen this huge, a huge increase in search, and it feels like. The people I talked to, there's a lot of struggle going on right now, because of course, there's this huge rush to digital channels when you couldn't spend money in a physical event for the first time in a long time, as an example, or even outdoor made sense.

Cause no one was outdoors. Right? So all sorts of things like that. [00:18:00] Cause this, this shift and in the middle of it, there's this massive set of changes going on in, in in privacy which. It had this sort of one, two punch when it came to digital. So there was a marketplace model that all of a sudden got a lot more comp competitive.

So that drives prices up. And then you, you have issues around deliverability and in all of these things, it's just made it much, much harder. So are you seeing people because you see so much at sky, right? That you've get lots of visibility into what people are doing. Are you seeing people shift into certain kinds of channels and are you seeing people abandon and just give up because it's too expensive now to get for the cost per outcome is just too high.

Margo: Yeah, it's a it's a great point to bring up the, the whole, you know, kind of privacy data deprecation challenge that, that all of us in marketing are facing [00:19:00] right now. I think there's, you know, there there's a lot to it. Right. And when we talk about digital, it's important to recognize that, you know, it's not, you know, one size fits all.

It's not like there's digital and all of digital is impacted by these changes in the same way. The, I'd say the, you know, kind of universal thing that every, every company is. Facing is kind of taking stock right now of what are their investments in each of their digital channels. And, you know, how might those have to change as the consumer privacy regulations, you know, continue to pile up and, and kind of build walls between you and your customer.

So, you know, what we're looking at is the idea that for 20 years digital marketing has been really based on the ability to has been. It's just been based on the ability to. See your customer and not just as they interact with your brand while they're on your own property, but as they move across the web over time, over, you know, across devices, [00:20:00] across websites that, you know, kind of third-party cookie tracking has been the foundation.

Yeah. Targeted digital marketing. Right. And that's, what's going to change. And some channels, you know, when you talk about things like programmatic display where, you know, you, you are feeding an ad based maybe it's a retargeting ad that, you know, is, is kind of showing up wherever somebody is shopping or browsing the web.

Not after they've visited your site and you've, you know, kind of. Those channels are really scrambling. They're really trying to figure out if they can work around these rules. It's becoming pretty clear from, you know, the browsers themselves and the big media platforms themselves, that work arounds aren't, aren't gonna have, aren't gonna work.

You're going to have to adapt not circumvent these regulations and, you know, and then as a marketer, if you're. Digital budget has been largely, you know, kind of favoring those types of channels. You might start to look at channels [00:21:00] that do not depend on on that kind of tracking and that are already sort of privacy safe because you know, they are in, let's say publishers that you know are already have a first party, first degree relationship with the consumer.

So things like paid search. Continue to do really well and really, you know, are going to continue to thrive because, you know, you're, you're not relying on this kind of later interaction with with your customers. Things like paid social are going to be challenged, you know, depending. But there's still a lot of room once you're kind of logged into a particular environment to continue to serve, you know, directive ads right then and there.

And we're, we're really starting to see adoption. And I think. Alluded to this. When you said, you know, marketplace options that are getting, you know, higher in price is retail media. So, you know, when you talk about ads that are being served on those online marketplaces or on [00:22:00] retailer websites themselves, as you know, so many retailers are working to establish their own ad networks.

Those kinds of endemic ads are going to continue to do really, really well and, you know, be less vulnerable to. To all of these, you know, kind of data changes. So there's going to be a lot of room to continue to market in a privacy, safe, you know, boundaries respected way. But. If your budget has been so largely favoring, programmatic display, let's say you might want to start looking into other channels and, you know, and actually start playing around with.

Higher investments in those channels and, you know, kind of seeing what happens before all the walls go up. And I say that because we're still like a year away from the biggest change, which is, you know, eventually going to be Chrome deprecating, the third party cookie entirely. They keep moving. But you know, they're, they're saying it's going to be 20, [00:23:00] 23 and that's when things are really going to change.

And as marketers, like, if something's not on fire right now, you know, we tend to put it off because there's a lot of things on fire all the time. So this is really the year for, you know, kind of trying new things, practicing and seeing. 

Peter: So I, I love that concept and I completely agree with you Margo, that this should be a year of experimentation for a number of reasons. One is there's this impending change. We've seen a little bit of it, as you've said, and, and I'm not sure a hundred percent of our listeners listeners understand the potential impact here.

You know, the point is that as you, as you said, you know, third-party cookie is, is is a way to track you across different web properties. And and that is not going to be possible on Chrome in, in a year. And that's especially important for things like. And programmatic and in a retargeting kind of campaigns that people have used a great deal.

[00:24:00] And and that, that means things have to change at the same time. We've seen all this massive change where there's this rush to, to digital. With sort of the herd mentality that was pushed through the pandemic and, and with all that, it's a really important time to run some experiments and, and get really creative.

And and I I'm actually excited about it because I, I think that. It's going to create some really interesting new approaches and ideas for marketers to try. And whenever you throw a new challenge at marketers, they have to think and be creative and find new ways to do things. And, and I think they're going to be these, these next level things that happen. And at the same time, I'm actually a big believer in what they're doing. I'm a big advocate of personal privacy and, you know, we're all consumers and, and it can be a little creepy to be followed all around, all over the place, unless I give someone permission. So finding some way to create a different kind of relationship with your prospects and customers, I think is going to be [00:25:00] important going forward.

One of the things we've done as I alluded to earlier is we launched a community. So I think you're going to see a lot of, of that because as you highlighted, you now have as someone who's got a walled garden, this unfair advantage, and of course that that's doing this sort of little scary. You know, anti-competitive thing all of a sudden.

So now all of a sudden it's the, you know, the Facebooks, the LinkedIns of the world who are really going be even further. Differentiated from, from their competition because they have this audience that's built in, but we as marketers need to create our own audience. And, and that means we need to find genuine ways for our prospects to, to engage with us.

But beyond sort of the community kind of idea. Are there any other kinds of, sort of really innovative approaches? You've seen people trying so far Margo or that you've done yourself at. 

Margo: [00:26:00] Yeah. I mean, you know, the, the community saying. Has a lot of application in a lot of different ways, because if you think about what most brands are trying to do right now, more than they ever have is to build up those first party relationships that they have with their customer base, because that's what gives them power outside of the walled gardens.

Right? Like if I can communicate with you. And understand you and know things about you that will help me serve you better because ultimately that's all marketers want to do. They're nobody's trying to manipulate consumers into buying something they don't need, but when you have data about a person, you know, you can market to them in a way that is going to be effective.

And you can also see. Products that are going to be useful to them. So there's a lot of, you know, application, if you're relying on the walled gardens for that interaction with your customer and for information about the customer to your point, you know, you, you might put yourself at risk for, for competitive.

[00:27:00] Overstepping and you are less in control of the relationship. So, you know, this idea of building up those loyalty programs, those communities is really, really important right now. And I think that the creativity piece is going to come down to how do you use those relationships? Because if all you can think to do with it is give somebody a 15% off coupon for their first person.

You know, they're going to unsubscribe and as soon as they've gotten that 15% off, I do it all the time. Right. If, if I'm not getting anything interesting from you other than your marketing messages over time then I'd rather not get your text, frankly, right? Like I don't need my phone blowing up. So some of these tactics are very You know, kind of th they're very like short-term thinking.

And I think where you're going to see things starting to get interesting and creative is, you know, exclusive product drops, for example you know, challenges on social media, things that, that get your whole network talking to each other and, and helping you market [00:28:00] together, those integrations between, you know, the online and the.

incentivizations like, you know, how do we, you know, how do we make you engage with us in different formats? Because it's worth your time. It's worth your while. That's where things are starting to get really interesting. And I mentioned before retail media. You know the idea of essentially, I mean, this is basically shopper marketing, digital shopper marketing, you know, it's like, it's like the digital end cap from when you're in the grocery store and there's a in store display.

That's, that's the digital, you know thing that you're getting with retail media, but that's also diversifying and format. So, you know, videos bringing in influencers you know, doing that. Sponsored search ads, but you know, using Amazon or Walmart or, you know, these other guys own DSPs to, to get display messaging out there, those things can be really effective too.

And, you know, you mentioned creativity, right? Like everyone's going to have to get creative about the message again, [00:29:00] when you can't rely on. Metrics like reach and frequency, you know, how much did we spray and pray our message out there. As you're, you know, kind of holy grail for success. 

Peter: So I have a theory and my theory is that because of everything going on in, and you mentioned this phenomenon that happens a lot where marketers are often sort of stuck thinking about. The three of the four PS of marketing, right. They tend to think about a price promotion and place. They don't think about product enough.

And I think because marketers have really focused in, in the last 10 years or so really about performance and demand directly. And it's really about how do I grind out more performance out of my assets. Not enough. Marketers are thinking holistically all the way back to product. And in you alluded to that in, in your answer.

And I think you're going to [00:30:00] see more, you know, what I call sort of a capital CCML. Kind of behavior where CMOs are starting to really engage in the definition of the offer in a much more meaningful way and dry back into what the product is. What's the offer in a much more strategic view over time versus getting the thing thrown over the wall and figuring out where to put ads for it up there.

So I, I think that is going to start to happen more and more because if you want to, as you said, engage. In some kind of special relationship with a community, whether it's a community prospects or customers, you need to be able to offer them something that is exclusive different and it can be experiences.

But I think the best thing to do in my mind is to create something that is a brand offer that is unique to that set of people who have a special relationship.

Margo: I think you're [00:31:00] absolutely right. My hope is that it doesn't take too much time for that evolution to happen. If you think about, you know, we're have ideas for. I come from versus where have ideas for marketing come from. Traditionally, those have been separate datasets. You know, digital marketing works really well based on digital marketing data.

You know, how did this last ad perform? And based on that insight, you know, what should I do with my next ad? You know, which audience engaged with my ad and based on that insight, you know, how much should I, how much money should I put towards targeting that? of in a parallel universe, you know, you've got the product and the innovation teams within many of these same brands being fueled by insights like market intelligence you know, consumer trend data.

So this more, you know, kind of higher level aggregate view from a lot of different external data sets where marketing has been fed by internal data sets what's happening is marketing being challenged [00:32:00] by, you know, lack of. all the internal datasets that they've relied on so far means that they're going to have to start incorporating, you know, external data sets as well and insights from, from market intelligence and consumer intelligence, outside of their immediate interaction with a customer and, you know, their reaction to their marketing.

And then you're going to have a product innovation teams, all of a sudden seeing marketing deals. As another, you know, kind of informant as to where they should be investing. And if that, if those walls start to break down, magical, things can happen because, you know, you can test out new products digitally before putting a massive investment into, you know, a full run of inventory that you then have to somehow, you know, kind of move, whether it's, whether it works or not.

And most products fail, like the vast majority of products that are brought to. Especially, you know, these new product lines that we laugh at at hindsight, you know, new [00:33:00] flavors of Coke that we're like, oh, of course, that didn't work. Why would Coke invest if they didn't have good reason to believe that it would work?

Right? It's because the cycles have been really, really slow, you know, getting the data, getting, getting from the data to the insight, getting the insight to the right team and making decisions off of it has just been this incredibly slow moving. But consumers move so fast right now, especially online, you know, things are instantaneous.

So if we can kind of break down the walls between what data each department within your company has access to and makes decisions from, and the time it takes to get from data to insight, to decision, we can start putting out products quickly that we can test. We can start informing product development from, you know, how well a marketing message.

You know, kind of resonated or whether a particular ingredient that you messaged in your marketing you know, did well, did better than, you know, something else, but for all of that to happen, you were going to need good ways of measuring [00:34:00] success. And one of the things that's coming away with the deprecation of the third-party cookie is multitouch attribution as a, as a model.

And so, you know, the. Final key. I think to this whole equation of, of cracking the future is, is figuring out a new modal of measurement online that you can look at as unbiased and, you know, true and kind of channel publisher agnostic. So things like incrementality tests. We're starting to see you know, move away from, you know, just the data science team to something that marketers are really interested in and starting to use.

And that's, I think going to be hugely helpful.

Peter: Well, that's that's. A great tease. We, we can't get into all the detail there because believe it or not, we're at the end of our time, just about but I will tell you if if the last two minutes about the, the future that Margo talked [00:35:00] about relative to measurement was interesting.

Interesting to you, you should definitely go check out their point of view it's Cause I think they have a lot to say on that topic. So definitely check that out. And we'll put a link in the show notes, but it's S K a So definitely check it out. And I think with that, we believe it or not have time for one last question from Kelsey. 

Kelsey: Margo. This has been a great, really enjoyed our conversation. And always like to ask, especially because you were a CML, what advice would you give to those that are CMOs or aspiring to be one someday?

Margo: think it's just crucial to stay really, really close to the data and really close to the revenue team. No matter what type of organization you're in marketers who think that, you know, they can hide behind vanity metrics or, you know, just kind of give You know, kind of give campaign results that are just like, about impressions, things like that.

[00:36:00] I think those days are done and there's a lot of turnover within the CMO world. So, you know, if you can become the data source for your organization and, you know, really be trusted there's this, you know, bias, right? That, that marketers are always putting spin on things. It's for me, like my team's ethos is like, we put spin on, you know, something in a press release.

We don't put spin on any kind of internal reporting. We are, you know, if the CEO asks me something, he can trust that I'm telling the truth. And there's nothing defensive about my answer where, you know, so that I'm because I'm protecting my team or my own efforts. If you can build that kind of. across the, you know, kind of the sea level then you will be given a lot of, a lot of trust and a lot of wiggle room in, in return.

And, you know, you can continue to, to grow your programs. So it took me a while to make that leap to say, You know, no, I don't want to avoid sales. I want to [00:37:00] get really close to sales. No, I don't want to not look at the data. I want to look at the data like multiple times a day and make decisions by that.

But once you make that leap, it's, it's a career builder.

Kelsey: Absolutely definitely music are yours. Pay attention to the metrics that matter to build that trust and those relationships within the organization. Thank you so much for your time today, Margo we've really enjoyed your conversation and make sure to follow the next CMO and plan out on Twitter and LinkedIn.

And if you have any ideas for topics or guests, you can email Have a great day, everyone. Thanks, Margo. 

Peter: Thanks, Margo.

Margo: Thanks for him.