In this episode, we speak to Jay Kulkarni, the founder and CEO of Theorem, an innovative digital marketing services company. Jay has over 20 years of experience in digital and was one of the earliest employees at ad network pioneer at DoubleClick.
In this episode, we speak to Jay Kulkarni, the founder and CEO of Theorem, an innovative digital marketing services company. Jay has over 20 years of experience in digital and was one of the earliest employees at ad network pioneer at DoubleClick.
We discuss strategies to deal with ad targeting with the increasing restrictions on 3rd party cookies, how owners of the walled garden networks will become even more powerful, and how flexibility in marketing will be one of the keys to survival in an increasingly competitive world.
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Learn more about Theorem
Learn more about Jay
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Produced by PodForte
Episode 52 - Jay Kulkarni from Theorem
[00:00:00] Peter Mahoney: The next CMO podcast explores topics that are on the minds of forward-thinking marketing executives from leadership and strategy to emerging technologies. And we bring these topics to
life by interviewing leading experts in their fields. The next CMO is sponsored by Plannuh
makers are the world's first AI based marketing leadership platform and hosted by me, Peter
Mahoney, the founder and CEO of Plannuh along with my cohost
Kelsey craft.
In this episode, we speak to Jay Kulkarni, the founder and CEO of theorem, an innovative digital marketing services company. Jay has over 20 years of experience in digital advertising and was one of the earliest employees at ad network pioneer DoubleClick. We discussed strategies to deal with ad targeting with the increasing restrictions on third-party cookies.
How owners of the walled garden networks will become even more powerful in how flexibility and marketing will be one of the keys to survival in an increasingly competitive world. I hope you enjoy this.
[00:01:22] Kelsey Krapf: Thanks so much for joining us on the next CMO podcast, Jay, super excited to have you on the show.
We'd love to learn a little bit more about you and what you do for theorem.
[00:01:33] Jay Kulkarni: Uh, good to be here. Thank you, Kelsey. Thank you, Peter. So Tiara operates at the intersection of media. Technology and marketing where we that's the space we play in and started here about 18 years ago off cry, quit double-click in the recession of 2002.
And I said, this new industry, digital marketing meets a specialized software. And that's how the journey.
[00:01:58] Peter Mahoney: Great. So interestingly, we have a little bit of a shared past, I was in the ad ad tech space back around then J I worked for a company called engage. Which was part of the CMGI family of companies. So tell me a little bit about your, your DoubleClick days.
I'm gonna, I'm gonna get all nostalgic for all that
[00:02:20] Jay Kulkarni: we both are. They both are. And you, it brings back memories blast from the past, engage CMGI ESR. Remember them? Well, one of my roles, I was a very early employee at w. Probably employed 40 or something. And one of the jobs I did blow stupid products and we used to go head to head up against engage because around the same time we even launching products for advertisers and publishers engage was doing the same neck.
Gravity was doing the same in the good old days. So these are some of the names from. Uh, good old days of the.com. Boom.
[00:02:57] Peter Mahoney: That's great. That's great. It's funny. I, Kelsey has no idea what we're talking about. Probably we don't want to know what she was doing 20 years ago, but it's, it's really interesting because.
What we were doing back then is de rigueur for what happens today. It's boring. It was, but it was so cutting edge back then. I remember I was actually in charge of product marketing for engage back. 19 98, 19 99, something like that. And I remember launching audience net, which was the first behavioral based profiling network that spoiler alert didn't really work that well by the way.
And, and the big problem was the lack of data and we w the big promise for advertising back then. Was that you should be able to target people based on their clickstream behavior. So what are they doing? What are they exploring around the web? What are they seeing, et cetera. And this was in the very early days where people were trying to figure out privacy for the first time, but even tracking that data and storing that data was extremely expensive.
So it was very difficult to do. And there wasn't nearly as much data as you needed to do targeting. But of course today, you know, you have people like Kelsey who grew up doing digital marketing, and you just expect that there's almost limitless data available about every.
[00:04:20] Jay Kulkarni: Yeah, I know they say the more things change, the more that, I mean the same in those days, cookies were controversial and they're back in fashion again today for, for all the wrong reasons, so to speak.
So you're right. But we are collecting data in, in wasp quantities, but on the flip side of it, there is a group. I guess awareness or promising rights at the individual level. So it's going to be interesting. How, what transpired in 15 years ago, there is some privacy advocates, but nothing compared to what we are seeing today, where it is being wise by individuals who are impacted.
[00:04:59] Peter Mahoney: Yeah. And w what, what do you, what do you see happening over the next, over the next period of time here as we had, we adapt to the, the cookie list or less cookie full environment that we're dealing with with the deployment of the new iOS release, that makes it harder for people to, to track across sites, things like that.
So, w one, can you explain that to, to our listeners, the, what we're dealing with now and how do you think it's going to. Marketers going
[00:05:29] Jay Kulkarni: forward. Right? So. One of the priority, three major points. One of the primary reasons third-party cookie became so influential was the ability to retarget when people are not in your website, that's the gist of why they came so prominent and the gist of why most of the abject technologies are based on third party targeting and third party cookies.
When that goes away. Ironically, it was a publishers who lamented. A lot of the third party cookies had more data on their users. So now the second point is maybe there is a re-emergence of the power of the first party cookie, where individuals side on us content on us are able to better control their listers, albeit in a smaller scale.
And that would potentially impact. Uh, business model. The third one is I don't think the walled gardens are going to be impacted as much because they have the ultimate first afar date identifier. I email login. So anytime I log into my apple blue eyes design, anytime I log into a Google, so they already have that first start date sign on and the other publishers will have.
Ways to enhance how they enrich their first party data. So the first party data, first party cookie will gain prominence. And the ability for the owners of that first party data will have a leg up, but the. One Godin's with continued because of the size and scale to still have that influence. So those are the three
[00:07:15] Peter Mahoney: trends.
And, and just to explain for our listeners who may not be as familiar with, with cookie tracking, the difference between cookies, et cetera, so that we're all talking the same thing.
[00:07:27] Jay Kulkarni: When you go to a website, let's say I go to Plannuh dot com. That browser that goes on, find out about calm sets, the first party cookies.
So I'm being tracked and your website, you own it on the third party cookie. If you're looking to monetize the AR pages and bed, a tag that serves an ad from a third party. So that's where the third party. Named comes in. So the colored body has a different domain. And any time I visit another website, which has tags from that tour oddity, they recognize me as going cross swept sites so they can re target.
So the re targeting who is definitely being impacted any DMPs will struggle because they were using the. The cookies to follow people wrong. The reviewers, whereas because of first party, cookie is managed set and controlled by Plannuh. You know, that Jane and I visit obviously during nights J it just surrounded.
But you're able to enrich that. So that's fundamentally your first party, which is the domain in which the set is another setting that cookie great,
[00:08:43] Peter Mahoney: very helpful. And when one thing that we should do, this is probably a good tee up Jay, to, to, to talk about sort of the, the future of. What you think of as the flexible future of marketing.
So tell us about how we're going to see this transition of marketing, having.
[00:09:02] Jay Kulkarni: Right. So a couple of major trends here where everything around us is becoming festival. So just the way we work, just the way we go to meetings, everything is changed and evolved and probably the pandemic has accelerated it. So it's just not the flexible future of market days, so to speak.
But the overall way we live and engage is changing and it's flexible. In some ways it is Darby. 'cause that's the evolution. What, what's the first thing they're saying, Darwin Darwinian that is done the biggest, the fastest, the smartest that feels alive. It does the one that adapt most. So in some ways we are experiencing that rapid change in the ability to adapt, to changing.
Not just marketing, not just business, but even in our day to day way we interact and live our lives is changing rapidly. So that's our option. So if your whole macro ecosystem is undergoing the seismic shift, then it goes to launch that yes, even the tasks you do. I marketing since then in that industry needs to be flexible for that.
So that's where. The macro trend is influencing the flexibility future of marketing coming down to one level down the profusion of all these platforms that are cropping up to engage, retain, and interact with audiences. So you have this fusion. So what does the brand. If a brand has to grow, retain audiences, attract new audiences.
There's only so many things that can master. So whether you are an in-house, you're an in-house agency within a brand, or you're tapping into it, you need to be very comfortable with. One of the things you want to build and bake into your DNA, but it is data. Whether that's your brand strategy, it's like you, you need to have your core DNA and for everything else, you need to rely on experts.
And that's the flexibility. The ability to tap into on a has needed basis experts, whether it's marketing, but it's been there. But then it's media. You need the ability to know what is it that you keep in knowledge, make it part of your DNA and how do you tap into other experts? And that's for the festival comes in.
[00:11:27] Peter Mahoney: It's really interesting to think about what, what are those core things that you think you need to own? Because obviously. Marketing. And a lot of businesses gotten much more complex these days, but marketing in particular has become much more sophisticated than it's ever been in virtually everybody outsources, something.
And there's of course a sliding scale. In fact, I was speaking to someone who's a software company that services the Shopify universe universe, and he was talking about how heavily outsourced most Shopify driven companies are, where they outsource virtually everything. So they're fairly large brands that have a relatively tight.
Set of internal staffs, but it makes you really wonder, and you've mentioned some things like data as an example, but w how do you decide what are those few things that you need to own directly inside the walls of your company?
[00:12:25] Jay Kulkarni: It depends on which line of business you are at. So if you are at a D to C.
Your need, would it be audience acquisition, getting in front of the right audiences at scale to do that? He would probably need to have data and create a skills in house to manage your brand story and have some kind of a discipline around that. If you are a content owner or a content publisher, like a publisher, then the content creation is your DNA that needs to be within the, you know, within your teams.
So again goes back to what is the core element of your business and what is it that you absolutely need to do to keep in house that core competitive? And what defines you? I do a couple of those examples, a big card wide Cod that is cropped up is the competition for, for good talent. So you, you have that, it's a gig economy.
It's hard to get people with the skills. So then that adds another layer of complexity. So if you have a set of subject matter experts that you want to keep in house, how readily well is that? For you. And can you, can you keep a, can you retain it because if talent is coming in and moving out, then it becomes very hard to retain that institutional knowledge.
So it's the combination. What does your brand or business DNA and what is it, what are the skills you need to manage that and own that everything else outside of, outside of that, I wouldn't call it an extraneous, but it potentially comes in waves. If you're implementing a new platform, all platforms. Mead design architecture implementation so that you can potentially bring people in our, ask me to face this.
The third, the next piece in marketing would be ongoing campaigns, right? How do you keep attracting new audiences and getting new audiences? Now that could be a hybrid Vejar and all steams can manage the design and impact of the campaign, but as execution can be based on your seasonality. And access to talent and skills you can work with outside.
[00:14:48] Peter Mahoney: Well, I'll tell you when go ahead, calcium, um, dominating the conversation already. I'm getting too excited. Go ahead. No worries.
[00:14:55] Kelsey Krapf: Uh, so I guess this is a good segue then to talk about, you know, theorems core DNA, what does that look like and how have you guys evolved and adopted based on what's been going on in the world today to really prepare for, you know, the future and, and continue to stay ahead above other marketing company.
[00:15:13] Jay Kulkarni: Uh, like I mentioned early on, uh, terrible breaks at the intersection of media technology and marketing. So those are the three core skill sets we bring to our client base and. Our expertise and remit, meaning in art, in the media planning, we, we, we help execute media plans and buys off to the dock. So we don't actually buy and sell the media.
So our core is to take that media plan and you put it into action. So across media technology and marketing, we are experts across a variety of different technologies and platforms. For example, Multiple marketing cloud platforms, you a certified Salesforce spot, but you touched on the programmatic ad tech stack.
We work with creative and in terms of technology and skillsets, we have deep jobs in automation and data. So if you step back and think of it, these are all the building blocks our clients, our brands, whether you're a publisher or a brand direct B2C. Need to scale the, our marketing business and operations.
So if you go back to my earlier comment, a lot of our clients try to keep that brand strategy and the brand DNA in house, but when it comes to scaling out campaigns, across marketing cloud, bit of a media, looking at automation to scale things further, it done to expose like there, I'm
[00:16:41] Peter Mahoney: a big believer that the element that you mentioned a minute ago, Jay that you, you help them, do you help them execute the plan?
But the thing that the brand needs to own internally is the plan they really need to, to, to, to build own and optimize the overall plan. Now, there are elements of it that you may farm out to partners to, to execute, but what, what your partners often miss. Is they, they often miss the forest for the trees that they may be executing a small piece of a much broader strategy without really understanding how all the pieces fit together as an example.
And they may make decisions or recommendations based on not really knowing how all of this stuff is supposed to fit together into a coherent plan. So that, that seems to be, that seems to be the area and, and interestingly, you know, One of the reasons I got so excited about building my company is that there seemed to be this lack of, of platform to tie the whole plan together because it's, it's, it's the, the, the tech stack for marketing plans on most companies is the Microsoft office suite, which is, which is a little shocking after all these years.
But yeah, that owning that piece is, is really important. I think to
[00:18:02] Jay Kulkarni: you, you mentioned the word admitting all these pieces together. Is in itself a massive undertaking and I'll not only his knitting, all these different platforms together complex has the brand story evolves, new platforms need to incorporate it, or you need to transition out of it.
So it's a constant evolution because if you look at the landscape five, seven years ago, and it was very different from any. And if you look at how the pandemic may affect how people consume content streaming, audio, video, shopping online, again, that continues to change. So the ability for us to be experts across all these different ecosystems marketing cloud, programmatic biddable media, and process automation allows us to be very synergistic with our clients that they're focused on their.
And the media planning, buying and the strategy, and then it comes to the technology ease and the execution we step in to make a trail. So
[00:19:04] Peter Mahoney: you have this great perspective over lots of different plans, from lots of different brands that you help implement. Are there any. Key insights that you can pull out of.
What have you seen change over the last year about either the approaches that people have employed or the things that just seem to be working better or worse from before? What's, what's really changed in the last year, besides everything I realized the whole world has changed in the last year.
[00:19:32] Jay Kulkarni: So access to platforms and.
It's become easier. It may not be affordable, but you can access it. So the first instinct of teams is I want to do it all by myself. I can do it all together. So there's that impulse to try new things, because it is exciting. It's technology and it's accessible. Previously technologies are not that accessible.
So you are limited in what you could do the downside of having too much access. Do you want to do it all? In-house I'm going back to my earlier comment about. What are you focused on? What do you keep internal? Do you have the talent and the teams to manage it altogether? That has started to become a lot more unfocused.
In addition to all the issues we had last year, the combination of access people wanting to do a lot themselves very quickly. And lack of trained resources is making some of the execution a lot more complex than it needs to be. What will potentially happen is as a budget. In a Titan people to start to realize that just because you have access to technologies and all of these different platforms, we may not be adequately equipped to do it all in house, which to your Shopify example, most of the Shopify.
Brand's a D to C and the reason they outsource it or they use the partner ecosystem is they are fundamentally limited by what they can do in hops. Secondly, as DTC brands, skip all, I'm using that as an example, very rapidly. Oh, wait a minute. But the platforms, so in the early days that focused on social media channels, Instagram slap just to get trashy, but once you get trashed and be able to, to replicate revenue at scale, you need a new platform.
So there needs to be a little more diverse. About how quickly brands wanted to embrace platforms, what to keep in house and how to map it to where they are in their evolution.
[00:21:41] Peter Mahoney: So give us an example of some of the platforms that brands are, are trying to implement in, in struggling with
[00:21:49] Jay Kulkarni: right. Sticking with the D to C example, uh, given the migration of shopping and all the activity online, it's actually quite easily.
To get going with a sore front eyes, let's say Shopify or whatever else, get that. So from going the supply chain could be an issue, but let's say that that doesn't involve the marketing piece of it. So you get a storefront, you have a niche product, very focused targeting the millennials. You go into social channels, which are again, easily.
Access to have a very low threshold for spend. So you get that initial trend going. So you start to book rapidly, but. The beauty of the DTC brand was very low barriers to entry, but that in itself I'll provide becomes tricky, but not because now to expand your audience, you need to go into new towns.
Those challenges could be programmatic or other biteable immediates. Now you need to be masters of these different channels that are way different from what you started off. This is where things start to get a little more complicated. A bit of a media programmatic is potentially good for actors. To get new eyeballs, but a lot happens.
Why offer you? A good set of customers. How do you reengage with them? How do you re target to them? How do you send them rewards and offers in a very personalized, meaningful way? That's where other platforms like marketing cloud comes in January. Good for re-targeting and having that ongoing communication.
So you start with a niche, social child to get going. Then you diversify into a bit of a media. But then if you want to, once you have a client base, you have a list, you have your email addresses, you know, their behaviors, you have a relationship. How do you bring them back into your fault on a regular basis?
So that's the transition and that's what they're seeing in the marketplace today.
[00:23:53] Peter Mahoney: Yeah, really, really fascinating. I know that there's a, like I said, there's a. Barrier to entry for engaging some of these, certainly some of these channels, but as you start to combine it into a broader strategy and make sure it all makes sense, it becomes harder and harder for, uh, for people to do.
So. What, what do you think if you look at the, the brands that get this the most that we might all recognize who are, who comes to mind when you think, Hey, these brands really get this. Omni-channel really engaged marketing strategy better than most,
[00:24:33] Jay Kulkarni: no one brand Springs to mind, but most of the digital native D to C brands have done it.
The very extreme example could be a Tesla because the only way to buy a car is from their website. You can go in and test drive. But they started this like 10 years ago. They're a very ultra high end high ticket item is your ultimate. That's what they do. But then you have some of the insurgent brands like casts, or they start off mattress.
Now they are into the sleep, all of it, you know, the whole sleep experience. If you will, they come to mind on onwards, comes to mind. And one of the things that jumps is another common denominator that not only are they meeting additional need to fuss, but then also purposes. I use Tesla as an extreme example, but if you go downstream skipping wellness.
So a lot of these D to C brands have the technology chops, but that very, very strong. Perfect. And their DNA and that's, again, something they keep in house. Then we go elsewhere to scale their marketing operations, but you can't outsource purpose. You have until you don't. And I think the ability of the brand who has a very strong purpose at the core, that drives how they engage with their customers, because they have a very strong non-stop.
[00:26:06] Peter Mahoney: And how, how would you recommend that a non-digital native brand? How do you think they should be adapting to, to learn from more the digital natives
[00:26:17] Jay Kulkarni: out there? Abcess? Because the mistakes can be. Expensive. So if you are already a brand, let's say you are not digital native or not digital native the way the other brands are, but do you already have a legacy?
You have clients, you have behavior. Do you have the data about your customer base, you know, your product? So in the zeal to transition, to becoming digital native, it's very. That there's a danger that they could lose that purpose. That purpose was whatever it was offline. So when you transition to becoming more aggressively digital later, they can't lose that purpose, whatever it takes, and then break down the client base that they want to keep and engage and then figure out where does that audience recite?
We had the hanging out on. And then work backwards. Who's your audience? Where are they located? What is it that they enjoy based on their interest in demographics, they may be in different places. And then what's the best way to get to your message or re-engage with them, where they are, and then figure out the technology.
I, in fact, even within TRM, the last thing we look at is technology. We start with what's the objection. You're trying to reach, what does that experience look like? And then go find that technology as a platform that gets you to that object.
[00:27:58] Peter Mahoney: So what do you think about some of the more narrow cast?
Communities out there that you might try to engage in for customers. So we're in one now, right? I mean, podcast is, is a medium that is rich because of the depth that you have, you have time to end. So you have the ability to. Get into more depth than you otherwise would. Obviously we're getting to learn a little bit about you.
We get to learn a bit about theorem. We get to learn about how to be a contemporary, digital marketer, all those things, you know, but, and then there are other emerging channels, like the audio first channels out there, the, the, you know, the clubhouses of the world and things like that. How, how, how should brands think about these small niche channels?
And do they do that? Play a part in their overall digital strategy.
[00:28:53] Jay Kulkarni: Absolutely. The one, one area where narrow casting comes to mind is medicine or finding patients who have rare diseases, already conditions. They are broadcasting doesn't work. So the ability to source who could benefit from. But then instead of cute takes well less, but it's medicine, but it's drugs lens by two learning made to not an outcast because they typically would congregate either in blogs or they listened to podcasts that carry a certain, very specific niche information.
That would be hard to get in this. Broadcasts club. So now our casting would be highly targeted, but you know exactly who you're trying to reach and then find them and physically they're in a very narrow cast media. Then the way you communicate, that message also is very well defined. I podcast it's an audio only act.
If it is video, then it is different. So the medium is already setting the stage for the kind of messaging experience that you have. That the, our end consumer was already said what he or she is interested in by being in that. So it becomes a very efficient mode of communication as opposed to a broadcast with us, a lot of waste to.
[00:30:23] Peter Mahoney: So, one thing I've noticed about this conversation, Jay, is that from someone who has such a deep. Long history and the technology side of things. It always seems to be last for you. I mean, we, we spent most of our time talking, talking about the audience, the brand strategy, things like that is, is there a lesson there for.
[00:30:45] Jay Kulkarni: Let me make my last point. Whenever I made that point, technology is a tool. So you, I like to define what is the problem, uh, figure out what is the value we can accomplish by solving that problem. And then go find the tool which leads to the budget and everything. To help accomplish that. I've been in situations where a lot of installations that failed because the tool was the first thing that was faked.
And then you're trying to force fit everything around that tool for a guy, with a hammer, everything looks like a male. So we step back and say, what is the problem we are trying to fix and lead with that? The value creation, the problem, the solution, then the tools are fairly easy. I think. It
[00:31:35] Kelsey Krapf: all goes up to starting, you know how to even build out your marketing plan, your campaigns.
You've got to start with a goal. You've got to start with the messaging and the audience that relates back in the same way. I want to switch gears a little bit here because I'm curious on, and I know we've talked a little bit on the B2C front. Obviously the world is evolving. There's so much that we've learned in and things that have changed.
Now, some of these strategies that people place on the B2C front, you know, they have to have. Like a seasonal business. There are certain holidays that come up about, and there are certain approaches that companies need to take. What did those look like and how do you think those are going to change in the
[00:32:13] Jay Kulkarni: future?
So, I don't know if it's starting to commingle where I don't know if it's going to be clear, cut B to B or B to C or B to B to C, because eventually you are going to that end user. So. More and more companies are going to want to have a direct interaction with that end customer, whatever that might be.
And it's becoming more feasible to do it because of access to the consumers, wherever they might be, understanding where they consume their content, where they hang out within social circles are whatever device they might be using. So the ability to go directly to your end consumer, it's more realistic.
In terms of getting there. That's the challenge, which is if you have the right tools in place, you mentioned seasonality, the biggest stuff. People in the pandemic bar, one of the biggest appeals was the retail and the e-commerce. So traditionally, most retailers got a big physical component to it. And the ability to.
I still like to go and experience the physical spaces, but the economics of having physical and selling online just doesn't work out from a supply chain perspective. So that those two, I think, would be the drivers of the, uh, acceleration. Like you mentioned to the B2B to C migration, which is managing the seasonality and managing the spikes and shedding those physical.
Channels that are being held on for legacy reasons.
[00:33:59] Peter Mahoney: It's been interesting to say the retailers in particular. Adapt. And I think in a really creative ways to, during the pandemic, but then I think a lot of these things are going to just stay forever because it's a, it's a better shopping experience in some ways to be able to blend the digital with the physical.
And it's been done out of necessity for social distancing purposes, but there's actually some really interesting applications of being able to complete the commerce. Transaction in a much more interestingly blended digital way. For instance, being able to pre-shop for the things you want, but then maybe go to the store and try them on, or do curbside delivery or whatever it is.
It just creates a much more seamless consumer experience. So the bar seems to continue to go up. So how, how do brands stay up with that bar? 'cause I, I assume consumers are gonna start to like some of these experiences and in demand more and more of these really rich digital experiences when they're dealing with their brands.
[00:35:12] Jay Kulkarni: Yeah. Some brands have done a good job at it. I think you need to go pee pandemic had a massive store on fifth avenue and they blended their digital and their in store very well. Nike had there, so there, so there are those extreme examples of those stores trying to take. A shot at it, but I think it's going to be difficult for smaller retailers.
That's where the bulk of the retail transactions take place. So I think it is the convenience factor, which you already seen in terms of delivery and go side. And think of that would probably be, that would probably lend itself more to a digital adoption as opposed to an experience, which is typically more for a more, for a higher ticket item.
[00:36:03] Peter Mahoney: Makes a lot of sense. And what's your, what's your outlook? I mean, I'm sure you have lots of early discussions and plans in place as, as some of the brands and retailers are thinking toward, you know, the big holiday and back to school seasons and things like that, but they feeling good about it. Or are marketers feeling bullish about, you know, continued expansion in, in consumer purchasing or, or are they still a little bit.
[00:36:32] Jay Kulkarni: Our business is picked out. We typically going into labor day, September coming up, and then they end up here. Shopping goes on, um, due to the pandemic, I think, or on volumes online and picked up an a hundred percent of our business is digital. We don't do any traditional. We don't do print nothing. So from our perspective that has faked up.
I'm not really sure if it is going to be in. To, uh, continue to trend beyond December because not all schools are opening. Some are opening in pockets, some are still, you know, offline, if you will. And there's always that, I don't know if the second way or the third way in sandbox the wall. So you always have that reticence of going full, full blown into a holiday season.
So that would be the unknown in terms of what has. If there is another way, but from a PR transition to e-commerce just shopping online. Yes. That one, he was picked up when I was that continued beyond December. I had no idea.
[00:37:40] Peter Mahoney: I w it'll be interesting to see what happens. Let's put it that way. Well, I, I, I think we're unfortunately getting to the end of our time here, this has been a really fascinating conversation.
And I think Kelsey has one more question, but before we do that, how can people learn more about you and.
[00:37:59] Jay Kulkarni: you can do a search. We are up there on Google. We have case studies, they have copied or ship logs. We have company culture it's one of our most visited is one of the top females, which is two sessions of the website. Believe it or not. So we are already part of that. So I checked out. Great. Excellent.
[00:38:19] Kelsey Krapf: Well, I have to ask, what advice would you give to those that are CMOs or aspiring to be one based on the future trends we're seeing today and preparing for the future,
[00:38:31] Jay Kulkarni: uh, don't let technology or tools or some of those tactical pieces you read the strive to.
That original goal of marketing, which is experience education, know your customer, know your audience goes back to what we were talking about earlier, where there's a lot of noise, but all of the technologies, but at the end of the day, Marketing is fairly human and very old fashioned, which is, you know, treat me like a human and everything else falls into place.
[00:39:04] Kelsey Krapf: The foundations of marketing, marketing. Um, awesome. Thank you so much for your time today, Jay. This was a great conversation. Make sure to follow the next GMO and plan out on Twitter and LinkedIn. And if you have any ideas for topics or guests, you can email us at the next CMO at Plannuh dot com.